LLP #73: "The Great Caliber Debate"

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In this episode, Eric & Matt discuss the ever so contentious caliber debate. Join the guys as they give their opinions on how different calibers stack up against one another, from handguns to rifles you won't want to miss this highly entertaining and informative conversation. 

Eric & Matt are both former US Army combat veterans who served together while deployed to Iraq during OIF III. Eric is most known for his YouTube channel IraqVeteran8888 which has over 2.4 million subscribers currently as well as his outspoken and no compromise stance regarding the 2nd amendment.  

Matt runs Ballistic Ink which is a branding and merchandising company serving 2A content creators and the firearms industry.  He is also very passionate about the 2nd amendment and freedom.

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Transcript

Eric: 0:00

Welcome back, everybody. This is Eric and Matt. And this is life, liberty and the pursuit, your beacon of freedom and the American way of life. Tune in every Friday for a new episode as we dive into the world of liberty, and what makes our country great. Alright guys, Happy Friday, and welcome back. This is Eric Matt here with LLP. And it's been a great week, and we hope you've all had a great week. And we're going to be diving into a really interesting subject. This might be controversial for some, but maybe not, we might hurt some feelings, but perhaps we will. This is the great caliber debate. And we're going to be going into some of our favorite rifle, pistol and shotgun calibers and talking about compatibility. And we'll talk about some of the weird ones, maybe some wild cats, we're going to really be diving into the deep weeds here on a ton of different things. It's gonna be a lot of fun. And you know, people tend to have their good old standbys and their favorites and things that they always, always go back to in terms of, you know, calibers that they enjoy shooting. always a lot of fun.

Matt: 1:08

Did you hear that? I swear, I heard somebody yelling two world wars, somewhere. Somewhere, man, but this is I mean, it's always like a, you know, a spot of contention amongst firearms enthusiasts. And it's, and the unique thing about it is, is that it really allows you to show your individuality. And that's kind of like how gun guys or gun people gun girls get it out. Like they love to customize their guns, their rifles, they love to choose, like the most obscure caliber possible to show that individuality. It's like, oh, what do you shoot, shoot a weather be like, What is that, like, I have to hand load it. And it takes three months to get enough material to cast the bullet on my holy cow. So it's always super interesting to have that conversation with somebody and to see the enthusiasm and that sparkle in their eye when they actually get to explain it. And like when nobody ever gets lets me talk about this particular round, or it's just always makes for good conversation, you're not going to have five people sit around a campfire at hunting camp, and not talk about the best cartridge for them and what they're shooting is just really neat. Before we jump into today's episode, we're going to talk about our show sponsor ExpressVPN. I know that if you're like me, or like Eric, you take your online search history very seriously, you want to make sure that is kept private and is not being sold to the highest bidder to force feed you ads. So I know most of you probably thinking why don't you just use incognito mode or some type of tool on your search engine. Those don't hide the data that goes to your ISP ExpressVPN does it's 100% encrypted end to end, so your data stays private. And you don't have to worry about prying eyes looking into what you're looking at. It's an app that reroutes your internet connection through their secure service. So your ISP can see the sites you visit 100% of your data is encrypted with the most powerful encryption available. Most of the time when I'm using it, I don't even notice it's on it, I opened my web browser, it automatically connects and you're good to go. They also have an app on the phone. So you click the ExpressVPN button on your phone, your browser opens up and you're protected. Anything you're looking for on your phone is protected. You're good to go. It's available on all your devices, including your Smart TV. So if you have a smart TV and you're worried about you know, searching stuff on your smart TV, it's protected as well. Guys, protect your online activity today with a VPN is rated number one by CNET, and wired get three months free. When you sign up, visit our exclusive link expressvpn.com slash LLP. That's e x p r e s s vpn.com slash LLP expressvpn.com slash LLP. But yeah, Eric, I'm really excited about get today's conversation about getting to really tell everybody and all of our viewers our favorites and really kind of add to that debate.

Eric: 4:26

Yeah, I mean, there, as you said, there are a lot of different opinions out there. And at the end of the day, really nobody's wrong, right? I mean, you like what you like, and you might have your reasons for why you like a certain cartridge. And there's a few different reasons for why you might gravitate to a certain cartridge. I mean, one reason might be because maybe you just have a lot of particular rifles that might be chambered in one given cartridge or maybe handguns, like for handguns, I tend to gravitate nine millimeter just because I got so much nine and I have so many nine millimeter pistols and pccs and things like that and on easily with an AR owner, you know, you can't help but have a ton of 556 laying around and 556 seems to be a very popular cartridge, you know, just because there's so many firearms chambered in it, there's over 20 million ar fifteens out there. So, you know, five by six is going to be a pretty popular contender in this the NATO standard it is. And there's always going to be the school of thought where people, you know, have that debate over, you know, what's better 556 or Seven, six to about 39, your AK versus AR type of people, I find some usefulness in both, I really do enjoy shooting 760 by 39. And I will say in this market 760 by 39 is actually been much more affordable and available than 556. So standard in some cases, right? 762 by 39 can actually be purchased for less than nine millimeter right now. So nine and 556 are just out the roof because the demand is so high, There's probably a larger proportion of Americans that own ar fifteens than own a case. Now there's a lot of a case in circulation certainly not saying that's not the case. But another cartridge has been very affordable right now is 545 by 39. We just spoke about that. Yeah, available and and it's out there, it's affordable. Same thing with 762 by 39. So sometimes a caliber choice might be out of necessity. You know, maybe someone has an S k s they can't afford to buy an AK yet and they bought their first s Ks. And you know, obviously those sheets 760 by 39. So having a rifle that maybe you're limited on what you can afford and having to have the cheaper cartridge might be, you know, just a nice byproduct of the gun you happen to own. That's cool. I do like 762 by 39 I think that for a close range cartridge does quite well. I do have an M 77. Mark to all weather. Ruger. This chambered in 760 by 39

Matt: 6:56

he took a deer with that last season did

Eric: 6:57

I shot a deer with it this last year I used the federal fusion 123 grain projectile and it's a soft point did quite well. Is 100 yard broadside shot on a big toe.

Matt: 7:10

Yeah, she had 100 Yes.

Eric: 7:12

So that's like stretching the absolute furthest distance, I would probably feel comfortable, you know, taking an animal with 760 by 39. But she she hopped over the fence and probably went maybe 50 feet. And it was a good humane shot a good double lung partial heart penetration. It was a good shot. She did go a little ways but might have missed the heart. But I think I got both lungs. But 760 by 39. Four it's it's um, you know, affordable price is certainly a decent, small to medium game cartridge in terms of, you know, people that use it for that. I prefer 556. I think overall just for consistency, I mean, and for long range use, you know, 556 certainly does a little bit better at longer ranges than 760.

Matt: 7:59

I definitely agree with you. I think that there is like a ballistic coefficient there that just lends itself to be better with that 556 cartridge 762 by 39 I think it's a good cartridge for if you understand the limitations of it and what it what it's used for. I think a lot of it is misinformation that was brought back from, you know, a lot of military guys coming back from either Vietnam or even like the beginning stages of like the OTF campaign. You just heard a lot of like, Oh, they they're only good for 100 meters. Are they tumbling? As soon as they leave the barrel? There are key holing and a lot of that stuff. It's like it's simply not true. Now it doesn't happen occasionally. Yes, you do keyhole fairly close. But is it normal or standard on all AK platform rifles? I wouldn't think so. But

Eric: 8:53

they are well worn example might not exactly stabilize,

Matt: 8:56

right. So when you're looking at it, you're so much misinformation that people tend to shy away from like, well, I don't want that I heard really bad things like I don't want to round it doesn't stabilize or it takes let's just say it takes more than 100 meters to stabilize and you is bad for close in shots. So it's just a lot of misinformation on think the round itself is good. If again, if you understand the limitations of the round, which you obviously do, because he said hey, you know that's probably about as far as a shot is I would take humanely with that.

Eric: 9:25

We have shot 760 by 39 out to some pretty extreme ranges. And when I say extreme, I would say let's just say a range where the bullet doesn't tumble and doesn't destabilize. I mean there is a point right like 550 yards, maybe getting into six if you got some good hot ammo. That's a long way for 760 to about 30. We have shot them out to that range and they can still retain some pretty decent accuracy and some good carrying energy. The 760 by 39 is nice because you do have a relatively heavy bullet, which does lend itself well to close range encounters. So for a close range in the brush in the thick stuff, you know, close range personal protection option my dogs going nuts. It does lend itself quite well for that particular application. So that's why in wars like Vietnam, for instance, the VC fared quite well with the AK because it's such a controllable rate of fire and a relatively heavy bullet. Energy.

Matt: 10:26

Yeah, it goes right through the brush much easier than the 55656

Eric: 10:30

hits, a tiny twig goes off into blue wonder not a very good enclosed brush gun, but a better long range gun, a little bit better performance for long range shooting. So those two are always going to be a trade off, right. There's no such thing as a free lunch in physics, right, heavier bullets tend to carry their energy a little bit better. and maintain good carrying energy at range. A bullet that's heavy for caliber, let's say you're shooting 154 grains 760 by three, you're certainly getting into good carrying energy, I've killed a lot of pigs with 760 by 39. With the cmmg, Mark 47, the full 16 inch barrel and getting full velocity out of 154 grain soft point bullet. And this this is ammo that I'm buying in 40 rounds leaves from wool for Tula right, the 154 grains off point, which we've actually done ballistics shell testing on on our channel, if you're watching on the video, we'll put a link down there for you to check out our ballistic steel gel test on that particular room. Now, the videos a little older, but the data should still give you an idea of the expansion and penetration, things like that, and the temporary and permanent cavities. If you're listening here on the podcast, make sure you check out some of our videos on it. But I've killed a lot of pigs with it. And I think the largest pig I killed was like maybe 220 pounds, and some big boy and one 760. By 39. I got you know, double lung penetration did a good job. So when approached within the limitations of what a cartridge can do, any cartridge will do the job, people just tend to have their favorites. And I think right now, with the price of ammunition being what it is, a lot of people are gravitating to 760 by 39 just because of its lower cost. I mean, your average 556 ammo is sometimes $1 or more per shot, whereby I've seen 760 by 39 when I've been lucky enough to buy it cheap. As cheap right now. I think he's like 30 cents, maybe 35 cents.

Matt: 12:27

I've seen some Steelcase that is pretty inexpensive. So

Eric: 12:31

you know, sometimes the economy of around can be a tributing factor as to whether or not someone chooses that round over 556. Maybe somebody owns two or three cars. And they're like, man, I don't want to buy 556 right now and then they buy like a 22 conversion kit for the AR Yeah, to be able to shoot 22 that's a great option to save some money. And a lot of people gravitate to 20 twos for that reason.

Matt: 12:56

You know, and I'm glad you mentioned that about the the cost of 760 by 39. Because I absolutely do not understand the hysteria right now around 300. Blackout. I mean, Everywhere I go, it's almost like they assume that I'm going into by 300 blackout, because I'm like, Oh, hey, I'm here to check out your ammo selection, the automated we're at a blood 300 blackout, my son that never crossed my mind.

Eric: 13:21

I'm not here. It has been a run on through him. Yeah,

Matt: 13:23

but I don't understand why I mean, think about it, you're taking around that is maximally effective. out of a nine and a half inch barrel, shooting a 30 Cal at triple the cost of a 762 by 39. For what? Like To me, it just doesn't make sense. One financially, right or ballistic coefficient.

Eric: 13:48

I think I can possibly explain. Yes, the reason I elaborate. I think the reason is, my dog is chewing

Matt: 13:57

something

Eric: 13:58

chewing up my table, she just carried off a piece of my table. She's a good girl, we'll let her chew on the table. I think the reason is because there's a lot less 300 loaded than other calibers. Right. So that makes sense. The price on 760 by 39 is what it is, is because I load too much of it and they import so much of it right? The labor costs are cheaper overseas getting repacks Yeah, exactly. So they're loading M4 760 by 39 300 blackout for one to 556 is kind of is what it is because demand is high. It's not that the demand isn't high for 300 but because most of your 300 ammo is probably produced domestically and they use brass case usually. I think for a while wolf was loading 300 blackout, but I haven't seen much of it.

Matt: 14:45

I've actually never seen it personally I'm

Eric: 14:47

pretty sure Wolf and Tula make 300 blackout ammo. But the problem is once it hits here, it probably sells so quick. They probably again, load considerably less. Now if they loaded as much they're in blackout over As they did 760 by 39, well, then the price of 760 by 39 would be as cheap, or 300 would be as cheap as 760 by 339. I think that's the reason it's just, they don't load as much of it, therefore the price per round is going to be, you know, it's just simple economics at that point. The demand might be there, but maybe not at the level it is 4556 and the 760 by 39

Matt: 15:23

Yes, probably why? Yeah, and then, you know, I think 300 blackout is served by a very certain niche of customer that they absolutely love 300 blackout. It's like the old cartridge. It's like the old joke is like how do you know someone shoots 300 blackout. They'll tell you it's like they're very very adamant about I'm

Eric: 15:44

here so 110 grain barns triple shot over 300 blackout moving you know good full velocity and throw a cannon on it just knock the edge off. It's pretty awesome.

Matt: 15:56

It is there's no doubt about good cartridge no doubt about it. But think of all the variables that you have to appease in order to get that performance like you have to have an SBR or a pistol you have to have a Can you have to have the like certain ammo to do a certain spec I'm like this is a lot this is a lot to deal with. Well,

Eric: 16:14

you get into some of these other kind of oddball AR cartridges and we'll come talk about those Yeah, you know one you've seen a lot of military units primarily like your special forces and Rangers and you know, kind of operator type switching back to six eight spec. Okay. six eight basically uses a 270 diameter projectile like you get old to 70 like your 270 Winchester except I think lighter pills Yeah. Okay. So the six eight has some really great potential you know, it's got a good heavy bullet good carrying energy, good case capacity, decent magazine capacity still in a standard ar 15 sized magazine. A lot of people have really really you know, had a lot of good luck with the carrying energy of six eight spec and there's lots of military units that are you know, trying to experiment with switching back to six eight. Of course, there's been a ton of people that have gravitated to like the six five Grendel, which is great. So if you're not familiar with six, five Grendel, if you're familiar, six, five creedmoor. Alright, it's sort of like a tiny six five creedmoor like it's a short action six five that can fit in a standard short action ar 15 magazine. I believe you do have to use specialized mags that are optimized for six five Grendel, if my memory serves, I do have 165 Grendel rifle, Brandy hunts with it. And it's great, smooth shooting real flat trajectory. And that's one benefit that you get with the six millimeters and the six fives is you do get down to a very good list a high ballistic coefficient that really trumps the wind well and carries well and they're great for long range shooting, especially if you set them up in a good full length AR that's got a good floated rail system and a good trigger and a nice optic on there and you know, good stock you can really get some pristine accuracy. And it's really like the way to stretch out the range potential on a short action ar 15 like the six millimeter arc and the six millimeter AR which is the Wildcat version of six millimeter arc. Those really represent like the culmination of the best ballistic principles of what a short action AR can offer without having to go to a larger platform in my opinion, six millimeter arc outside of the Wildcat actually six millimeter AR has better case capacity. You can actually load the rounds a little bit you can get a little more steam out of them then you can the six millimeter arc To be fair, but from a Sami spec standpoint of a semi spec cartridge the six millimeter arc is certainly I believe the apex of what a short action AR cartridge can do.

Matt: 18:57

Yeah, and I think it's accurate I think that's for the longest time six millimeter you know I believe it was the Swiss that we're dealing with the six millimeter first right

Eric: 19:11

well, so let me tell you it's kind of funny. The military actually issued a six millimeter rifle A long time ago okay six millimeter Lee Navy, it was a straight pool. Okay, so it uses this really funky straight pool bolt and it used a round nose six millimeter projectile. And let me let me look up here and see when the six millimeter Lee Navy was around because it's it's been a good minute so the thing is, is early on, they had the six millimeter Lee navy and it never really caught on. But which is where we are in 1895 All right, you're talking rife a cartridge that was developed in 1895. It was called the six millimeter US Navy or 236 Navy, which of course was not used very long, it fell out of favor pretty quickly. But you're talking on the light in a 75 green bullet moving at 3300 feet per second. So here we are with the US military in 1895. They had the idea was right there as in their grasp, you know, they had the right idea of a six millimeter small bore, but full power cartridge. I mean, there you are, like, look at all of the velocity that you can

Matt: 20:29

think screaming for that for that age and that technology,

Eric: 20:33

foot pounds energy man, like they had the right idea. And then you get into the the 112 grain projectile moving at 2560. And I guarantee you once they have if they would have switched that to a Spitzer bullet. Now you're talking. So six millimeter was not a new concept for a small bore rifle, it just maybe they just didn't have as the quality of propellant. So that's

Matt: 20:58

what it comes down to. I think that the innovation was ahead of the technology. So the idea was right, the idea was correct. And that's proven today, because it's proven like all of the LR guys are shooting six millimeter, like they are hitting out like a mile or more now. Yeah. So I mean, they're they're hammering targets, like two, I think a guy has hit a two mile target. Yeah, I was like, my God. But oh, to be

Eric: 21:23

fair, the Lee Navy also had a real complicated bolt that you know, you had to be, it was not a very good military rifle.

Matt: 21:30

Well, that's what that's what I was referring to, like the technology and propellants and rifling and materials. Think about the pressures that that gun had to endure, with the powders that they were using, it was probably over, over pressured. Now, we have all types of metallurgy going on, we're able to contain that pressure in a much smaller, lighter footprint. And you're, you're seeing it now across the board with long range shooting LR competitions. And even I mean, if you can get I would be I would be very interested to see if they're able to squeeze out into like a smaller system like even like an AR style system, that's like more of a semi automatic versus bolt,

Eric: 22:16

right? Well, when you get into the into the six millimeter AR and the six millimeter arc, those are what you're accomplishing. You're getting a small bore short action cartridge, Aiden really does, you know, get the maximum amount of steam that you can out of a short action in an AR. That's really your only limiting factor is going to be the size of the magazine and how much of a projectile and cartridge you can fit into the weight

Matt: 22:39

of the cartridge. Like I think they're switching over to polymer casings now, at least they were with the six eight. So they're talking about doing the the the new the new squad automatic weapon, which is six, eight, polymer casing, I'd be very curious to see when they switch over like the main battle rifles, are they going to continue to use the polymer casing with with the magazines and help reduce the weight because I think they received they achieve something like a 25% decrease in weight just by switching to polymer casing. And that's

Eric: 23:13

a big deal. Well, you know, when you think about transport cost of moving the ammunition from one place to the other, and may not necessarily be I mean, sure, the end result is that the soldier has a little bit less weight to carry, therefore can carry let's just say theoretically more ammunition, right? For the same loadout in terms of how much it weighs, right. But also transport costs, right? I mean, yeah, the lighter you can make your ammo to transport, the cheaper it is to transport. So there is that economic factor that goes into play. As we move on, it's worth mentioning, I believe that the AR has stood the test of time it is proven to be one of the most modular and you know useful platforms, arguably in the world. I mean, they are very easy to work on and service and use, and they're very easy to mess with different calibers. And they have really proven to be a great, accurate, soft shooting, soft recoiling platform that will continue to be prevalent for another century, a century from now people we make an AR parts because it really is a great gun design. And there's a lot of other technical wonders that we have access. I mean, look at all the great bullpups that have been coming out mean, you look at the stuff from my Wi Fi, and the guys at Desert tech are doing a great job with the MDR and stuff. So you know those guns are the future I think bullpups a more compact rifles are the future, but also these calibers, right small, fast, compact, high ballistic coefficient, when you look at the six millimeter creedmoor, which I don't know exactly when the six millimeter creedmoor came out, but I've got the window to the world right here. Well,

Matt: 24:49

that's what I was looking at because you said bullpups and actually one of the weapons that were submitted to replace the M four m 16 was by General Dynamics, it's a bullpup in six, eight, while the other two weapons systems are more conventional, non bullpups, I personally don't know if the military is going to be able to make that switch, because it's a completely different manual of arms completely different as far as like speed reloads. I like bullpups, if it's a bolt gun, or even the MDR is a really, really nice gun. But as far as having that confidence to when you go into a room, and if you have a malfunction, or you have to speed reload, it's still kind of a wonky maneuver, because you have to pull the weapon up rested, and that everything is different. So I just don't know, if the bullpup rifle has a place as far as replacing the standard battle rifle in the military. Is it a, is it a great concept with technology? Yes, because you can fit a 20 inch rifle into a 16 inch to a size of an inch. It's I mean, right? It's amazing how much how much more barrel you get just by moving some stuff around.

Eric: 26:17

When we all know velocities name that game, yeah, especially with on board, especially with 556, if we're limiting ourselves to 556 velocity is certainly the name of the game. And when you go from like a 12, five, and you can go to a bullpup that has a 20 inch barrel and almost may be about the same size as the standard for now you're talking, you're cooking with Crisco, because now you get that velocity. And that velocity is certainly what you want with small bore.

Matt: 26:41

Yeah. And to get that package in there. But the main thing is just being comfortable with the gun, getting comfortable with the manual alarms and malfunctions and stuff like that. If they can, if they can implement it and get everybody comfortable with it. Great. Yeah, but I do think that General Dynamics has a very tough road to hoe as far as break breaking into and getting into that industry. For sure. And

Eric: 27:05

I think that another area of consideration is you've also got to train armors you got to change all of your supply over. So you know, changing a cartridge is a big deal for the military to do right because think about how much stores they have a random 556 ammo like that was one of the reasons during World War Two when they develop the muon Gran. You know, I think it was MacArthur and went back to him is like, Nah, we don't want this to 76 Peterson I mean, which would have been a great cartridge, but then you got to buy all this ammo and store it and get it to the front and do all these things. But they had tons of empty ball laying around from the OT sixes. Yep, from the Springfield, oh threes and whatnot. So they're like no, make it an eight shot and change it to 36 so they made some minor changes to the gas system and the overall setup last night rounds with

Matt: 27:54

him to ball. Last two rounds of capacity

Eric: 27:56

rest is history. But yeah, with the 276 Peterson the original grant was a 10 shot. And then then when they switched all six, they lost two rounds. But MacArthur was smart. He realized that they had all that all six ammo and that made supply so much easier because they already had the ammo. Good to go train the armors you know get tooled up, get the spare parts. You got your ammo, bam, off you go and no

Matt: 28:18

one's arguing against black tip. All right. Oh,

Eric: 28:20

well. black tip does what it wants. Yeah, comes to that. So

Matt: 28:24

that was that was the one beauty they had a ton of it laying around. And trust me, no one's hiding behind trees feeling safe on I like the 36 a lot. You know, I love it.

Eric: 28:33

My grandpa hated the 3006 he was not a big fan of it used to hunt with it. He lost so many deer with 3006 I think it was just because of his shot placement not being so good.

Matt: 28:41

I would tend to agree because I didn't lose a single deer the entire season. And it was like a one shot for every single one of them that 36 was performed amazing. And I fell in love with the cartridge. So that was actually the first time that I shot 36 the Lord to that point, I normally use 308 and Eric recommended he was like, Hey man, let's take out this 36 Let's see how you do with this Mauser and I just boom fell in love with it. I'm a believer, I don't think that there is a better deer hunting cartridge on this planet than a 36.

Eric: 29:20

I mean, so we can talk about that a little bit. So with the 36 one thing that I kind of not really pressured Matt to do, but my recommendation was for us to start running the 220 green pills I started so this goes back to when we did the brush gun video. And we were shooting through really thick brush and we were using heavy for caliber bullets to try to see kind of you know how it worked right and we found that the heavier bullets did great and brush and I started hunting with the 220 grain soft point core locks from Remington and I think also some of the Federal 220s as well. Power shock power. shot and I had a great experience with them. I found that every deer that I shot with the 220s it was just like a jackhammer and just floored. Yeah, I floors. Oh yeah, with good shot placement. Now if you don't get a good shot the only other issue with that heavy bullet is that in order to get the bullet to expand really well, you have to get a good broadside shot in a perfect location. If you shoot a small body deer in a bad location, it'll just poke a clean hole through and it won't really expand. So that's the only issue when you get into the 9.3 by 62 and the 9.3. But 57, which I love those cartridges, I've got a 9.3 by 62 that I haven't had a chance to take deer hunting yet I got it right after deer season, but you better believe opening day when or whenever we get out to go deer hunting, I am running my 9.3 best 62. But I have to deal with the same challenges that you do with the 220 grain bullets in the art six because without proper shot placement and especially on a smaller gear, you can lose the deer you know if you don't get a good shot, so shot placement is still crucial. But I like the heavy bullets because they bump the little twigs and brush and things really well. And they just hit like a freight train and with good shot placement. I shot an eight pointer with my alt six this last winter in a place we call the devil stand. And the reason I call it the devil standards because it is this weird like out in front of the deer stand there's this old like pond bed that goes out and it's it's empty dried out pond bed. And this is like weird little go between like we we put a salt block out there and we pour the corn around it and one guy made the made the distinction. He was like it looks like some weird witch called lives out here he enriching a ritual. So we start calling devil Stan. Anyway, I shot this eight pointer with my 220 green bullets out of my Mauser. And, hey, I shot him and it was probably an 80 yard shot. And I got a great shot right in the boiler room. And I thought maybe that I'd gotten a bad shot, but I fired the shot. And the way that he reacted was just kind of shrugged a bit. And it's almost like a shirt, He shrugged it off a bit and thought, Man, did I get a bad shot, I was worried. You know, when you fire a shot at a deer, you always want to wait a second to chase him. And I always learn to shoot, and then listen. Alright, so I'll always shoot. And then I'll just I'll work actually real quick and get around in there again, in case I have to shoot again. But then I'll be really quiet. And I'll just listen. And I heard him kind of stumble. And then I heard him fall down. So you always want to listen, because a lot of times you'll hear him fall. And then when I went back down to retrieve my dear Sure enough, right through the boiler room, really good blood trail, he stumbled 30 feet. I mean, and it was a very clean and effective round to use in that particular type of situation. I'm a big fan of heavy pills, but the nominal bullet weight for 36 is usually like in the 150 grand range. So 220s as heavy medicine. That's a heavy pill.

Matt: 33:08

Yeah, I mean, I've seen them go anywhere between 151 65 180 100 Yeah, but that to 20. Oh, yeah. Have it made a believer out of me because I always thought I was like, man, I'll do a 185 get a little bit more distance. And then Eric was like, Well, I mean, you're not really going to be hitting anything over, say 150 at this particular farm. So I'm like, Alright, well, let's do 220 we zero the rifle it for 220. And, man, it only took a couple and I was a believer on that one. Yeah.

Eric: 33:40

Well, you know, that's the cool thing about 3006 though it is like the ultimate chameleon cartridge because you can go all the way down to 110 grain accelerators all the way up to 220s. Maybe a little heavier might get a 230 stabilize if you get a fast enough twist. But that's the cool thing about it, the 3006 will do it all. And the cool thing about ot six is that the case capacity on ot six starts to right we get close if not rival 300 Winchester Magnum, the only difference is 300 Winchester Magnum can handle a lot more pressure and can be loaded to much hotter pressures. And generally the nominal weights on those I want to say are like 165 to 180. So a 300 Win Mag is made to go a little heavier and a little hotter than about six. But the case capacity if you've got a gun that can handle the pressure in ot six, you can certainly get an OT six moving pretty good and as long as your shoulder can handle the recoil, you can certainly get some good performance out of a 36 and I think very highly of it. I know here in Georgia there's a heck of a lot of hunters now that are using like seven millimeter Magnum. Yeah, and lots of hunters use seven millimeter Mauser still. That's a great caliber. It's a good flat shooting cartridge. Good bullet weights want to say you're getting around 140 grain bullet and a seven millimeter so I'm still good velocity law. To velocity a good high ballistic coefficient, good trajectory. So a good medium hunting a medium range hunting cartridge for sure, that'll still perform great at 150 yards, you know, close in. But if you need to take a 300 yard shot, it's certainly gonna have the carrying energy and a very flat trajectory to do the job for sure.

Matt: 35:21

And that's what, that's what knowing your hunt and knowing your game comes into your ammo selection. So obviously, if we went out and we were hunting, and we knew that we were going to be taking 300 yard shots as a normal, we probably wouldn't use 220s Oh, no, we probably load up some 165 185 something like that gives you a little bit more own at a longer range. But without having a

Eric: 35:45

marshmallow falling out of the sky. Listening mopping in.

Matt: 35:49

I mean, if you shoot far enough, you'll just kind of see a lob in there. Yeah, but I mean, as far as hunting cartridges go, I mean, you can't really you can't really debate that it's it's a tried and trued cartridge, lots of versatility there.

Eric: 36:03

Like in the 9.3, about 62. You know, they call it like the the one the 9.3. But 57, they would call like the potato launcher because it's such a heavy bullet. And I think it's a 250 and sometimes a 265 or 270 grain bullets. So the nine three uses a huge heavy bullet. And it does have a very elliptical trajectory. But it's really meant to hunt very large game within like a few 100 yards. Most people in Scandinavia or even here in North America, the cartridge has gotten a lot more respect over the last, you know, 10 or 20 years and what it had initially 9.3 but 62 is a good large game, you know, 200 yard hunting rifle, maybe with a good shooter 250 would be possible. But I think most people are going to try to shoot within a few 100 yards with that.

Matt: 36:48

Yep, and not to ignore our NATO brethren with the 762 by 51. no slouch with hunting. I mean, lots of people use it. I mean, I would probably say that's the most common rifle hunting cartridge used is like a

Eric: 37:06

308. Lots of you know, run 308. And one of the benefits of having a 308 is let's say that you're a fan of like, maybe you've got a Scar, maybe you got a FAO ar 10 or an AR 10. Yeah, and let's say you like to go out and do I don't know long range matches or something, or you just enjoy taking your ar 10 out shooting. Or maybe you want to hunt with your ar 10. That's perfectly capable too. But a lot of people might have an auto loader of like we mentioned, and then maybe a bolt gun as well. So that's cool, because you can keep the same ammunition on hand for your bolt gun or for your auto loader. And I know brandy hunts with a Kimber 84 M. And it's a 308. And we use the 150 grain superformance warranty. And that round, I've yet to have a deer walk away from it, it drops them right in their tracks would get shot placement. So 308 is a very, very good hunting cartridge. Especially, I think a lot of people tend to kind of heat and haul over 308 because there are so many better long range cartridges. You know, there was a point when people would treat a bolt gun in 308 kind of like a, let's just say, a long range hunting rifle or maybe for military purposes, right? You know, military snipers would run 308 bolt guns because a long time that was the norm right that they had entered. But there was a point where we didn't have six millimeter creedmoor and six, five creedmoor or even 300 Winchester Magnum wasn't thought of in that capacity. Now that of course a lot of like, you know, Alaskan hunters and other big game hunters that were using 300 Winchester Magnum for a long time, it didn't really fall into military use for quite some time. took a while to come around. But 308 it's been on the chopping block caught up quite a while. So I think for hunting purposes 308 is a great cartridge because I mean, yeah, you're not gonna shoot it an animal eight or 900 yards away or 1000 yards away. Now you might some people do some long range shots that have guns that are set up really, really well. I think that's kind of stretching it for three away I believe Sarah humane hunting situation, but 308 can certainly offer really human potential on game animals. You know, inside of 500

Matt: 39:16

I was gonna say about 500 is

Eric: 39:18

probably where you get a little more you know, caring energy, and you can certainly perform a much more humane shot on an animal than you could with like 4570 or 444 or 220 Grand 36. If that does,

Matt: 39:31

and I know I can already hear the Marines yelling at the computer screen, we qualify a 500 with M fours or M sixteens. And this is true army qualifies a 300. But what we're referring to is being able to put a 30 caliber pill or a 7.62 by 51 pill in a very specific spot on a very specific animal

Eric: 39:58

facing a very specific quick

Matt: 40:00

way, yep, at 500 yards, and you have to have about four inches to work with. Yep. So when you say, I have to hit a 40 inch target at 500 meters, anywhere on the black is one thing. Yeah, but to hit a four inch circle at 500 with a 762. By 51, it's a little bit of a different animal.

Eric: 40:26

I agree. And I think that, um, you know, when you when you look at that aspect of it, the way I would treat it is that when you look at, let's say, a 10 inch pie plate, not the larger paper plates that you see, but like the old traditional pie plates with the little fringes on the outside, a little bit smaller right there about 10 inches. If you can't take a rifle and put a pie plate up on a board and hit that pie plate with competence, you don't need to take a shot at an animal with it. That's the way I've always treated. So let's say the hunt calls for and I didn't necessarily want this podcast to be just about hunting. But well, we're going to switch to handing on the brand.

Matt: 41:01

Well, we're going to switch to handgun calibers here after we are

Eric: 41:04

we do have hunting on them. But if you can't, if the hunt calls for offhand shot, well guess what you need to be able to shoot a 10 inch play off hand at whatever distance you think you're gonna do it. And if you can't do it, you don't need to hunt or I need to practice more and get better right or use a shooting stick or stabilize the gun or get down on some to perform the humane shot that you need to perform. So I think that there's a lot of manjusha gets looked at when it comes to rifle calibers, pistol calibers, I did briefly mentioned that I prefer non milled just because I got so many different nine millimeter handguns, but there's a ton of great pistol cartridges and some of them have such cool history. And some of them just have a great functional use. Like I know, in the beginning of the podcast, you kind of took a little stab at World War Two, I guess you're talking about 45 ACP,

Matt: 41:52

they all do World Wars 45 ball, they all fall to the 45 ball.

Eric: 41:57

Right? What I like about 45 and let's just say modern times as we look at it now is that almost all if not all, the 45 ACP out of especially out of a, you know, eight or less inch barrel in a PCC or something. It's all subsonic. So if you throw a can on, it's a great subsonic shooting platform to keep everything quiet. This is true. If you've got a 45 ACP handgun with a suppressor. They are so quiet and they suppress so well. And I love hearing those 230 green projectiles hit a piece of steel when the gun has made hardly no sound each thing is so loud. So 45 has its uses right now, with someone you could still carry a 45 if you want plenty of people still carry 19 elevens and other firearms chambered in 45 ACP, I have no problem with that. Like it's a good hard hitting cartridge. It's accurate. I mean, believe me, there's something to be said about a big heavy pill just piling through and getting

Matt: 42:52

what it wants so much damage. But I think

Eric: 42:54

the biggest benefit now is suppressing them.

Matt: 42:57

Yep, suppressing them. But I don't. I mean, I understand the design and the drawbacks of the design with it being a bit dated, but the performance that you can squeeze out of that and that accuracy that you get out of it out of the box, the the slimness of it, everything about it, not outside of the nostalgia, just say like in general, let's just say you didn't know that was a 1911. Like you're completely new and you you're just picking the gun up. It feels good in the head. Yeah, it fits the hand, it's a slim profile, the weight is good. That helps with the recoil impulse because it's a heavier firearm. It's not you're not getting jack hammered by like a 10 millimeter Glock made out of, you know, plastic. So I mean, which I love the 10 millimeter by the way. It's it's a great caliber. But when you have something that's designed around that caliber, it's made to absorb the impulse, the recoil impulse, it's super accurate, you can finesse the trigger so many options I do. I love the 1911

Eric: 44:04

is a great hard to argue with how awesome a 1911 is like when it comes to just go into the range and having fun like there's nothing better than a well tuned 1911 with a good barrel in it and a good trigger. And man just watching those rounds hit the same spot every time and just man shooting a good group with them. I probably would not want a 1911 let's just say as a combat unit. You know, they probably have their quirks All right. It's just the fact of the matter. It is a dated gun. I do like the 1911 though. You know there was a long it took the Marine Corps a long time to get back away from the 1911 and get back to nine millimeter marsoc was using them like till the end like other guys

Matt: 44:46

are dying they would not let go of them. Look

Eric: 44:48

that the 45 ACP is a great cartridge in the 19 elevens a great gun. I have no problems with it. Now. Would it be my first choice if I was going into a sticky situation? No, I think I'd probably prefer For a gun was more capacity so like a you know, a good nine millimeter. I really love the SIG m 17. I think that's a great choice. I love the Glock 19x those two guns are fantastic. A few of my favorite handguns. Good capacity. Now with all of the great bullet technology that we have we got better propellants. Now, there's absolutely no reason why nine millimeter can't stand toe to toe with some 40 Cal rounds in terms of energy, and everything like that. I like 40 Cal, there's always going to be this debate between people that like 40 and people that like nine and look. The thing is, if you like it, run it if you can shoot it, good run it. No one's gonna judge anybody, right if Hey, I remember when I came across a whole bunch of Winchester Ranger T. Alright, which is basically Reeboks or rehash rebranded black Talon. It's kind of that same type of it's very similar projectile to the black town. I bought a bunch of Winchester Ranger t 40 Cal 180 grain, and I think I paid and this is 50 round le boxes.

Matt: 46:02

Ooh boy,

Eric: 46:03

I paid $16 a box for him. Now what did you think that I did with that? I went and I bought a 40 Cal handgun. You better believe it because I wanted to have the ability to have a good carry gun and 40 cow in fact, I think about a Glock 27 and I bought a Cz chambered in 40 cow and I love them. 40 is great, man. It's got a ton of energy. It's a great cartridge. It's a really great way to bridge the gap between the high speed nine millimeter and the really, you know high speed heavy bullets that you see in a 10 millimeter. Yep,

Matt: 46:34

it's a little bit slower. You know, it's a slower moving projectile with it being but I think he's got energy. Yeah, sounds like it gets a bad rap because it's a very, you only hear about people either this shoot nine mil, or 45 slash 10 millimeter, but not a lot of people shoot 40

Eric: 46:52

a lot of people do. They just don't make a big deal. Or they don't let you know. Well, you know, you got to think for a long time the police were carrying 40s and that was sort of like the caliber for them. We won't get into the development of 40 Cal from 10 millimeters like it came down to FBI agents it couldn't qualify with 10 mil. So they had to make the 40 Cal to make the recoil a little bit less so people can shoot it more accurately. I personally love the 10 millimeter.

Matt: 47:17

I think it's a great cartridge. I think it's the great cartridge. You know what else is very interesting and unique is the fk

Eric: 47:26

Oh yeah, the seven f k Yeah, that's a really interesting cartridge and that's a new development. It hasn't been around very long. You're talking a handgun cartridge that can penetrate soft body armor at 100 yards.

Matt: 47:38

I mean, it is on the larger side. But look what you're getting out of it. You're getting a hard hitting pistor cap pistol caliber carp I mean, essentially, not a karbi but it's a pistol caliber out of a hand gets a bottleneck chercheur It's a bottleneck cartridge.

Eric: 47:58

What I want to see is an AR and chamber

Matt: 48:02

that's what I remember we talked about that before I said that would be ludicrous. No, that would be like a five seven on steroids in

Eric: 48:09

a database. Barrel yeah the suppressor and the seven five fk buddy I mean those 100 grain pills man at a such a great cartridge and I can't wait I know eventually you'll see some AR so I'm waiting on sound like somebody please

Matt: 48:24

make this but it

Eric: 48:25

is no pistol is really awesome. But it is a niche kind of thing may not really appeal to every single person and fit every single set of circumstances. They do have braces for them now and stocks which is kind of cool. I think

Matt: 48:37

I might try to take a deer with one. Yeah, maybe this season. They're good guns, man. I'll get out at what I'll get out of like one of the closer stance weather. Yeah,

Eric: 48:47

they're really cool. So that's a great observation. You know, I have a cmmg Banshee and 10 millimeter. We were actually talking about that earlier maybe on one of the short stands, I think it has a 10 inch barrel. So you definitely get some steaming velocity of 10 millimeter. I might throw a good optic on that thing and maybe this year we'll try to take a deer with a 10 millimeter just to show how effective it is. We'll try to film it so quickly I want to change directions to shotguns because I know I love shot Yeah, we don't have a lot of time left but we got a few minutes to discuss shotgun so I love shotguns and I'm a big fan of semi auto shotguns. And of course I tend to really gravitate, gravitate to 12 gauge. Now when it comes to shotguns it seems like some people just have their niches in there that they really enjoy. Some people are 14 types. I really enjoy the 14 Some people like 20 gauge and 16 gauge and some people like pounding out some 10 gauges. I mean I love to engage

Matt: 49:43

and I'll have a shoulder left

Eric: 49:44

after that a lot of recoil but i think you know pound for pound and dollar for dollar. Most people with shotguns tend to gravitate to the just good old standard 12 gauge because it is such an industry standard and so many guns are chambered in 12 gauge,

Matt: 49:57

a lot of versatility, a lot of rounds. Instead, you can choose from Oh, yeah, if you think about and also, the thing that really really works for tool or for shotguns in general, 12 gauge being the most, you know, most used?

Eric: 50:13

is most of it out. Yeah,

Matt: 50:14

for sure you can load your own shells very easily. It's not. So reloading in general can be a very daunting thing to try to take up and learn because you start having to learn weights and all this stuff. But really, if you want to the easiest barrier to entry would probably be a shotgun, because you can get the shells you're not I mean, you're using the primaries, but you're not like, it's not super, super scientific to get it done. Yes, you need to weigh it out. But it's not nearly as hard. Or the learning curve is like loading actual, like brass and bullets. Yeah,

Eric: 50:49

I mean, show. You know, a lot of people load trap loads, and they get like, really great value for the money. You can buy like an eight pound cargo promo, and get a bunch of holes in your business buddy. And like, you can get it on the shotgun rounds out of an eight pound cargo promo.

Matt: 51:06

And you can use anything you want as fodder. You can use dimes, these tags tax well nails. I mean, you're not going to have a barrel left after you keep using it. But think about think about the versatility of it. You're like, you know, you're like, man, I don't have any actual buckshot or lead. I'm gonna throw some frickin nails in this thing. Get some little carpet nails and you just send those things down, right?

Eric: 51:32

Yeah, gun is kind of like the ultimate. It's like really cool. four cylinder bore shotgun, like a good single shot or pump action is like, you can throw anything and it's awesome. But I love 12 gauge. Because the versatility I mean, I love the different buckshot sizes, you can get so much that you can do with it. And I love shotgun slugs, it's just an absolute amount of a visceral energy. I'm a big fan of the moneykey black magic. Oh, I love it. It's got a bear on the box. one and three eight ounce slug moving at think there's stroking out of there about 1500 feet per second. Screaming Alright, look, I'm gonna do a quick energy calculation on that is now.

Matt: 52:12

So while you're doing that energy calculation, I'm going to shout out a YouTube channel that if you're into shotguns, you need to watch which is Tao flutter mouse.

Eric: 52:23

He does a lot of random stuff,

Matt: 52:24

those guys will do the most craziest random shotgun loads. And this is really where it's entertainment because you get to see like the bolo around. So they have like bolo rounds, they have custom slugs into them from guys in Russia that are milling this stuff out all different types of loads. I enjoy watching it, it really lets you see the versatility of a shotgun. And whatever you want to do. Whatever you want to try to load up and experiment with, they've probably already done it. So go check them out and learn something. And then you can say, well, dang, I'm going to go pick up a shotgun now because I had no idea that I could do all this stuff with the shotgun. And if you think about it, it is the ultimate like sh TF firearm because you can pick up anything around the house and throw it in there and someone's gonna have a bad day.

Eric: 53:18

Let's see here. All right, so on that bear slug 601 grain slug moving at a let's just call it an even 1500 feet per second, you're talking a 12 gauge round. That yields 3000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle Hmm. So when you think about the world of guns, right, that's a pretty miraculous thing. That's a lot of energy to foster. A lot of people tend to it is Foster. So it's actually a hardened alloy. It's used as a heavy liner type construction. So it's real hard and it penetrates through bone and everything. I mean, it's made for like to bail there. Yeah. But that's one thing I love so much about 12 gauge is just the visceral energy don't that you can get. I mean, there are certainly rifle cartridges that can yield that type of foot pounds. But hold on man, like you'd have to get almost into a stopping rifle to get into that type of territory. Right? So if we get into a like for instance, let's compare that to 458 Winchester Magnum, okay. I can probably just pull up the spec on that real quick here. All right. 458 Winchester, Magnum, relatively entry level, big game, cartridge, but don't get me wrong. A bruiser, right. Let's compare those energies. Now getting into a 500 grain bullet. Yeah, you're getting into 5300 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, but that's also a specialized hunting rifle and it does that one thing and it doesn't really well. But to think a shotgun can yield you know, 3000 foot pounds of energy. That's a pretty destructive slug going downrange. That's a giant hole right so I love shotguns in The variety of different cartridges that you can shoot and the 12 gauge you got birdshot buckshot, and all different types of things and slugs. It's just such a versatile gun that can do a lot of different things. I mean, beanbag rounds, rubber buckshot, less than lethal breaching rounds, you can shoot locks off to where I mean, there's so many things there. I can tell right? Yeah, Dragon's Breath. So there's so many cool things that the 12 gauge can do. So I think if you do like messing around with different cartridges and playing around with shotguns are an awesome way to get into that man, you can really do a lot with it whereby let's say a nine mil or a 556. I mean, this AR it is what you see unless you swap the upper and change around and convert and whatever. But the 12 gauge is cool because you can have one single shot 12 gauge if you want, and then just stuff a bunch of random stuff in it and have fun with it.

Matt: 55:51

And there is no other gun, I would rather have shooting down a hallway than a 12 gauge shotgun. So and trust me the person on the other on the receiving end. Yes, the shotgun is a slow moving slug or it's buckshot it's not going to penetrate armor is not going to defeat body armor. But you don't have to because I promise you, if you hit somebody square in the chest plate, they are not going to just pop back up is not the movies, they're going to have broken sternum broken ribs, they are going to be jacked up. So

Eric: 56:26

I'm a big fan of Bernie's. Bernie's, he has a couple of different they have their special forces barrier penetrator, I saw those tears like almost like a, I don't want to say a hardened steel slug, but it might be steel, it might be a steel slug that has like a water around it or something. I don't remember the exact but but I know it's heavy. And I know it's hot and it penetrates like 1600 feet per second. And then they've got their home defender, which is also a slug. It's a hardened alloy of foster slugs, so shotguns are awesome. That's how I will end this podcast. I love shotguns, and I'm a big fan of 12 gauge slugs, when it comes to just making our minds and destroying things. Definitely do it. And I think that people tend to discount the fact that shotguns are very utilitarian, you know, gun that can do a lot of different things. So, you know, we wanted to kind of get your minds working on this caliber debate. I know we discussed some of the ones we like. And I've never met a cartridge I didn't like so I'm not gonna say I don't like any of the cartridges I mentioned. And we didn't get to talk about some of my other favorite cartridges. We didn't even get into black powder, and things like that, and cannons and things. I'm a gun guy, I love it. All right. But maybe this got the juices flowing. And maybe we talked about some things you'd never heard of, and it might merit some future research.

Matt: 57:47

And I think the most important takeaway from this is guys. Don't worry so much about what somebody else is shooting, if what you're shooting makes you happy, and it works for you. Then shoot it don't get caught up in what somebody says is a better round because guess what, they're not you. If you mastered that particular rifle or that particular round, then it doesn't matter. Shoot what you

Eric: 58:11

shoot. Yeah. And don't be afraid to just try new things, right? I mean, if you're at the range, and somebody wants to let you, you know, try out their gun that you've never fired before. Like, you know, take it take a chance like just give it a try. You might like it. Yeah, I know. I'm not gonna get into another story. I'll save it for another podcast. But that's how Brandi got to like and 40 cow, you know, she we were at SHOT Show when she shot a Walther PP Q and 40. And she loved it. She just thought it was great. And she didn't know she was being handed a 40. So we kind of psych ourselves out, right? Like, if someone tells you they're handing you x, y, z, and you know, you're being you know, shooting something you're not familiar with, well, then you might have this preconceived notation, oh, I'm not gonna like this. But if you just go into every situation with an open mind, you might find you know what, wow, I really liked this particular gun, or this cartridge, I didn't think I was gonna like it. And if you go into an open mind, you might find that you'll change your mind pretty quickly. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can go over to Ballistic Ink, pick yourself up a snazzy t shirt, like the ones we're wearing here. Big thanks to all the folks who are watching here on YouTube, as well as those of you that are listening on podcast form. So I mean, there's, we're on Spotify, Stitcher, Apple podcasts, bunch of different places. We tune in every Friday for the podcast, the video version of the podcast drops on YouTube on Saturday over on iraq veteran 8888. So if you'd like to, you know, tune in on video, you can do that as well. But a big thanks to all the folks that are listening in, be sure to leave us a great review that helps us show up in the search engine algorithm a little bit better for the algorithm

Matt: 59:45

algorithm.

Eric: 59:47

Thank you very much. Have a great week. We try our best to post every Friday. Sometimes might have a little bit of lapse in coverage, but we try our best to keep these episodes flowing. So thank you for supporting us and we hope to see you soon Have a great week, and many more on the way. Bye everybody. Thanks for listening to life liberty and pursuit. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and anywhere else podcasts are found. Be sure to leave us a five star review. We'd really appreciate that. You can support us over on Ballistic Ink by picking yourself up some merch. And remember guys, dangerous freedom. Have a good one.